tracking tithing
October 14th, 2008 @ 5:06 am
tithing has been a popular topic on this here ol’ blog a few times in the past.
one night after catalyst last week, my hotel roomie and i were discussing tithing and different ways churches track (or don’t track) individual giving.
most churches keep a tally for contribution statements to be mailed out for charitable giving. and to me, that makes sense.
where it can get subjective is when churches track in order to reward those who make large donations. or when they use it to see if and how much key leaders or staff members are tithing.
to further demonstrate this, one time many, many moons ago, i was literally cornered by a staff person at a church i was involved in because their records showed chris and i weren’t tithing and we were key leaders.
what they didn’t know is that we were giving faithfully in cash, not to only their general budget, but to their building campaign as well.
so…where do you think the line should be drawn? should those with decision-making power in churches track tithing, or should it be done by a finance person within the church or even a third party? is it fair to look at somebody’s track record and draw assumptions based on such?
Related posts:
Church · Hmmmm
Bill (cycleguy) said,
October 14, 2008 at 5:32 am
Anne: you have raised a sticky situation for many churches. IMHO I believe giving is between the person/couple and God. As the pastor, two things enter in. First, it is none of my business what a person gives and two, I do not want to know what anyone gives. We have a finance team that oversees our budget, counts the money and keeps an eye on things. I want nothing to do with it. As pastor my job is to shepherd. As staff I believe I should set the example by tithing plus but I don’t go around broadcasting that. Once again it is a me & God thing. “My” church tracks tithing for the purpose of IRS stuff but I have no clue what anyone gives. I don’t want to, especially based on your last question.
Joanna said,
October 14, 2008 at 6:41 am
I don’t think it should be tracked at all, and certainly not individuals pressured to give more or rewarded as the result of any surveying. It is between God and the person giving how much they give. People being guilt tripped into giving money they can’t afford or don’t believe god has told them to give will just cause resentment and i don’t believe is honoring to god.
Adam S said,
October 14, 2008 at 6:48 am
I rarely give to our church, not because I don’t like them but because it is a really rich church and doesn’t need the money. I give directly to friends that are missionaries and overseas poverty reduction programs. So I would come up if someone looked into my giving at church. But I do want to give a mention to the other side. While I believe that giving is personal, that it doesn’t need to be directly to the church, that tracking can be really messy, I do believe that giving is important and that a church should be working with their people (as part of an appropriate overall discipleship program) to make sure they are giving. Money is a big deal in the US and I think that it is one of the real weakness of the US church is that we don’t call people on one of their main idols. Especially in lean times people need to learn they can depend on God and they should still be giving.
Shawn said,
October 14, 2008 at 6:49 am
Anne, I like the idea of a third party tracking it, for Tax purposes, etc. I truly believe that church staff should not know. This is a matter between the individual and God. Not an individual and another individual. You have definately made me think about this topic, and even put questions in my head as to my own local church, and where they stand on this subject. I may just have to approach our head pastor at lunch sometime and see his stance on this topic. Good question for the blog. A thought provoker indeed!
Scott Williams said,
October 14, 2008 at 7:08 am
*Track It
*Demonstrate Integirty
*Develop a Healthy Spirit of Cheerful Giving
*Use Good Judgement
*Be Wise
It’s all God’s and we trust Him with it!
Rich Birch said,
October 14, 2008 at 7:11 am
I understand the pastoral implications that are posed in this situation. I understand that lots of “pastoral types” don’t want to know who gives what . . . that’s fine by me.
I come at it from a pragmatic point of view. Non-profits are leveraging this data all the time to interact with donors. Church going folks are still that largest givers to non-profits of any type. As a part of my role here, my job is to interact with the donors and develop that aspect of our ministry. For me . . . there are two things driving this:
- some people have the gift of giving - why do we shy away from developing that gift? if someone had a the gift of teaching we would spend time with them to “better” that gift - why do we isolate people with gifts that have to do with $?
- other non-profits are targeting our people - we need to as well. we need to be smart how we interact with our people - to keep the mission in front of them. to make the mission and the related costs known to them. so they can decided if we are a worthy philanthropic target for them.
maybe i am way off on this . . .
adam said,
October 14, 2008 at 7:25 am
my church’s leadership has no idea who gives/doesn’t give/how much anyone gives. they keep it that way.
the only people that know are the counters, who are too busy to pay attention, and the treasurer. the only reason the treasurer pays attention is because he has to provide tax records.
just like we are to trust God when we give sacrificially, the church and its leadership needs to trust God that its needs will be met. yes, talk about giving. encourage people. ask for funds to cover expenses/building/missions etc. but don’t use records against someone. giving should be out of joy and love, not out of coercion.
Sara said,
October 14, 2008 at 7:41 am
I had never heard of churches rewarding the big tithers until your post a few months ago. I couldn’t believe it so I immediately called my dad (who’s a pastor) to see if that was common. They don’t do it at his church or any church we’ve ever attended, but he has heard of it. Anyhoo…I know that at his church the elders and pastors don’t keep track of the tithing. There is one person who knows how much everyone gives…she counts it, enters it into the computer, and deposits it herself, I think. That makes sense to me. The leadership has no need to know how much each person is personally giving. I know my dad already has so much on his plate, why add one more thing? Of course, that’s just my opinion.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD said,
October 14, 2008 at 8:01 am
AS a loyal Southern Baptist I wrote my PHD on the subject of tithing using mostly materials bought at their Lifeway book stores.
Having opposed this sacred cow I was then treated as the invisible man at SBC churches. They really are not for open discussion.
Russell Earl Kelly
http://www.tithing-russkelly.com
tony said,
October 14, 2008 at 8:24 am
anne - you bring up a good point regarding judgement of others more than tithing itself. you paid in cash and others judged it - and were wrong.
the reason some churches track giving is just for the reason you were asked about your giving. whether a person believes the 10% rule or not, most churches do believe in giving in general
i personally would not want to be a part of any church, or any other religious organization including those that love to make money by selling stuff (conferences, literature, shirts, music, books, speakers, etc) whose leaders did not only tithe, but also gave above that amount. otherwise, those leaders are just like secular leaders, nothing different about the way they lead their lives regarding money. they definitely want my/your money - so why not require the leaders to set the example
it’s really simple - don’t be offended that somone asked, just realize that the system isn’t set up to track cash.
and yes, I strongly believe that only sacrificial givers should be leaders of any type at a church - i’ve actually asked pastors and their staff to show me their giving record vs. salary before I joined a church.
Jennifer said,
October 14, 2008 at 8:31 am
There is no way around this no matter who does the tithing/finances we are always going to be looked at as to how much we give which I think is wrong. LIke you I have given many times in cash and have really been thinking about keeping it that way. A church I attended years ago had a situation to where a family needed some finacial assistance and the associate pastor told the husband and wife that the church could not help them because they did not tithe. I was speechless when I heard of this. I didn’t and still do not know how to respond to that problem. Maybe a third party would be best seeing that they would not know the individual. Sad to know that we have people talking in our churches and judging us on how much we give, more than likely they dont even know the situation. I do not think that person had a right to say any thing to you about how much your were or were not giving. I think it should be between you and God. The word says we are to be a cheerful giver, being called out like that may make a person become a bitter giver.
susan said,
October 14, 2008 at 9:01 am
The spiritual part of tithing is giving back to God the first fruits. And to judge others without knowing the details of someone’s finances is certainly not Christian.
To “know” someone is tithing would be receiving a copy of their tax return and then comparing it to their giving. Otherwise it is based on assumptions that may or may not be correct.
And everything is God’s anyway.
jonathan said,
October 14, 2008 at 9:03 am
It’s such a non-issue to those that give. Isn’t it?
I’ve always worked at churches that tracked my giving, and held me “accountable” to giving my tithe. And while I mostly thought it was silly, I thought it NOT to be a big deal because giving 10% to the body that invest spiritually into me seems like a small thing to do.
I recognize that there are some great, great people on both sides of this fence; but there is a lot of anger on both sides of it as well.
Joseph Louthan said,
October 14, 2008 at 9:06 am
I go to a church. Therefore I tithe and give to that church.
My church is full of wealthy people in one of the wealthiest cities in all of America.
My church gives attention and audience to the biggest givers despite James 2:1-6.
The church is a whore and my mother.
She is the Bride of Christ.
It breaks my heart.
But I will serve Christ.
I will love her and I am in love with her.
God told me to stay.
So I will stay and I will pray.
Joseph Louthan said,
October 14, 2008 at 9:22 am
What really scares me that I feel that God has called me to be a pastor. But oh how I covet just to be the teaching pastor (akin to John Piper). Not lead or senior, just the teacher.
When I read this post, I immediately thought, “Please, the elders at the church that I will serve will never ask me to sit one on one with the bigger givers. I am just the teacher. All I do is preach and teach and point all things to Christ.”
But…
Let us hope we all listen to the Spirit that dwells within us and not our weak, fragile, puny, decaying minds with incredibly small and limited vision.
Derek said,
October 14, 2008 at 9:40 am
Frank Viola, in Pagan Christianity, wrote about the history of the modern “tithe” and how it was enacted as a new tax, since at the time the church and the state were one.
Churches that intimidate their members to tithe, whether through guilt-laden sermons or direct confrontations are revealing that money is their highest priority. You should be giving money when calls you to do so, and in ways that God is calling you do give. If that is to a local church, great, but many of us have decided to no longer support the building & budgets consumerist Christianity here in America, and are instead giving our money solely to people and organizations that are directly helping people in dire need. My freedom in Christ, and obedience to His call, is far, far more important than paying the salary of a clergy or the mortgage on a multi-million dollar building - things with no justification in the New Testament.
julieh said,
October 14, 2008 at 9:50 am
Honestly, I’ll chime in with an “I don’t know.” None of us love accountability, and my first reaction is ick… but I’ve also heard that lack of giving can be an indicator of where a person is at spiritually. I don’t think people should be tracked without their knowledge… but I’m not sure if it’s wrong to track with their knowledge. If it is tracked, then it should only be one or two persons, not open information for anyone to see.
But, as the scriptures say, where a persons treasure is, there heart will be also. Everyone should give what is in his heart to give. But if their heart isn’t to give at all… that could be indicator of a spiritual issue.
Also, If it is the expectation of leadership that church members are to give a certain percentage, then as leaders, should we willing to submit to that in unity and do that, as an example to others? maybe?
Thanks for the thought provoking post! :-)
Larry Boatright said,
October 14, 2008 at 9:51 am
Hi Anne-
I have wrestled with this topic so much and still am not completely sure where I stand. As a pastor, I personally don’t want to see what people give. I do however want to challenge people to live beyond themselves and for the Kingdom and to be givers. I however understand the argument that as a pastor we should help people in all aspects of their spiritual journey, and giving is one of those elements. I guess it really comes down to whether you believe people should tithe to the local church or not. If so, should pastors see it as an area they should help others grow in? I completely understand helping those with the gift of giving to grow in that gift. SO… I’m not sure!
We had a big discussion about the “we’re giving in cash” and I’ve heard more often than not that the amount of cash we take in compared to checks/automated giving is very very little… so most people who claim this are not really giving much anyway. I think a lot of people use this as an excuse and it just doesn’t add up at the end of the day. I think you and Chris are the exception to the rule, and that is awesome!
It’s a tough discussion, let me know when you get it figured out! Great discussion, carry on!
Toby said,
October 14, 2008 at 9:52 am
Short and sweet: I would be willing to wager that if the church feels the need to “track” tithes, they have many more hidden problems behind the tracking.
I don’t write checks to “pastor” or “elder” or “deacon”. I write it to the church, for the benefit of His Kingdom. That’s between me and God. It has never happened to me, but I hope to never be approached about if or how much I tithe. That would be a bad day.
ErinLeigh said,
October 14, 2008 at 9:57 am
Give Give Give!
You can track cash if you put it in an offering envelope! (Am I the only one who still has those?)
Pastors/key decision makers shouldn’t know who gives what. But, if there is a member of church leadership who appears not to be giving AT ALL, I think their pastor should be made aware of the situation, if he wants to be. Especially if giving to the church is one of the requirements of someone in leadership for a particular church. Why wouldn’t we want to be held accountable? An early symptom of burnout or backsliding can be a downturn in giving.
It’s not about money, or shouldn’t be - God provides that. It’s about the people and a relationship with Him.
(btw..sorry you were “cornered” anne! sure isn’t the right way to go about asking that question!)
Ben Stroup said,
October 14, 2008 at 10:00 am
You have uncovered a powerful paradox. Churches are the only God-ordained institution designed to continue and sustain the earthly ministry of Christ until his ultimate return. Churches are also non-profit organizations who are exponentially becoming more complex in structure and needs as the demands from members and communities are becoming more complex.
I’ve summed up my work with churches in this area into a simple phrase: “More Money. More Ministry.” It’s essential the we begin bringing a level of sophistication to Church as an organization to ensure that it’s fully-funded and sustainable over time. Like it or not, this takes money. So the burden falls upon the church leaders (aka “non-profit managers”) to ensure long-term sustainability. Our secular and religious non-profit brothers and sisters have been doing this for a long time. It’s time the church steps up to do the same.
It sounds like the conversation you had while on a particular church staff was very inappropriate and most likely is the result of the wrong person being in the wrong position (or at least given the wrong task and strategy). However, that doesn’t discount the reality that church leaders should be modeling the behavior that they expect from the membership. It’s sounds like you were the victim of poor communication habits.
As church members are becoming less convinced the their tithe should be entirely allocated to the Church, it becomes the Church’s responsibility to justify why the tithe should be given completely to the church. They “you-should-give-to-the-church-just-because argument” no longer works–if it ever did.
Thanks for the dialog on the essential subjects of stewardship and church giving!
Kelly said,
October 14, 2008 at 10:22 am
Jesus purposefully sat, watched what people gave (which historically has always been a very public thing) and made statements out loud to his disciples about what people put in the pot in relation to their intentions (Mark 12:41-43). There is little, if any, scriptural support for the fact that your giving should be private.
Giving is also revealed in scripture as a crystal-clear window to the heart; the people who don’t want their giving tracked are the people who don’t give. It is reasonable to think that if you do not give to a ministry, that your heart is not fully behind its vision or that your heart is not generous.
That said, my pastor husband and I rarely know about giving — either people or amounts — at our church. We chose this path not because the givers deserve privacy, but because we choose not to indulge that part of our sinful nature. It would be admirable but nearly impossible to separate our compassion for the people from our estimation of their commitments.
Bruce said,
October 14, 2008 at 10:29 am
I couldn’t stay away from this post…
I have a gazilion thoughts here… many in response to the previous posts (it is scary to see how far we have moved away from God’s word.
Trust… that is the only line that is needed… we should trust the ones that lead us. If they question us, we should be thankful. If we are in error, we should take correction.
It is totally fair for the people that lead us (or we allow to lead us) to look at our track record. It is not for them to make random assumptions, but it is wise to address any inconsistency.
Where your treasure is, your heart will also be…
The big issue here is not who tracks or who should track, or who gives & who should it be given to, but TRUST.
a) Do I trust God with everything I have- enough to tithe and give even more?
b) Do I trust the Authority God has placed over my life- enough to invite inspection of my life and accept correction when given?
Wanda said,
October 14, 2008 at 10:44 am
This is always such a touchy subject. As far as the leader’s knowing who tithes what and questioning a person on their giving….it appears to me to be an accountability issue. Unfortunately, we are human and we need other’s to help hold us to the fire of accountability. We can say we will do what’s right…..but how often do we actually do what is right? So, for me……I want someone to hold me accountable to God. If I’m sinning and no one intervenes to help….they are sinning as well.
Deciding that a church is so rich that they do not need my tithe……..NO THANK YOU! I can’t find that acceptable. God doesn’t say….pay your tithe to whomever YOU think needs it most. It is to go the place you call home (your church…where you are fed and worship and taught and loved and a part of the body)….it’s your privilege to be a part of the bride of christ and to follow in biblical giving there. Any giving of missionaries or needy people….that is to be above your tithe….it’s called offerings. God blesses a cheerful giver….He really does.
The reality of giving is that in most churches 25-40% of members sitting on the pews do not give anything. Sometimes it’s even 50%. That is a sad shame. So not only do churches have people sitting on the pew not serving physically…but not financially as well.
‘
For those who criticize minister’s for teaching/preaching on tithing and giving in churches……these men are held responsible for NOT speaking the truth and teaching what God has provided within scripture. It is painful for the minister to have to address his flock with the subject of money and tithing (specifically because of the finger-pointing and harsh comments about it being ALL ABOUT MONEY to this guy!)).
It’s not his word in the Bible….it’s God’s.
So take it easy on pastor’s who have to say the hard stuff……put yourself in his shoes.
Last thing…..I’ll say.
It doesn’t seem to be a problem (I have found) when talking tithe/giving to people who are doing it faithfully. I personally feel blessed to give and honored that I have the privilege of serving in that way.
I owe it all to Him anyway!
The Church Bartender said,
October 14, 2008 at 11:10 am
If the church is the ’storehouse’ and we give money and ’store’ it up………..what are we ’storing it up’ for? Say we ’store up’ $50,000 over the course of several years and then one day find ourselves out of a job……..oh, let’s say we are ‘let go’ by a church for example and our family is hungry, past due on mortgage, out of gas, and in great need - - - - Anybody know a church / aka / storehouse I might be able to go to and get a $5000 check to help me through the month? I mean, I did store it up right?
Michael
Jeff Goins said,
October 14, 2008 at 11:15 am
great topic, anne, and I’m sorry to hear how some well-meaning religious folks have, out of a misunderstanding of scripture, hurt you in this regard. this is, i’m afraid, an all-too-often occurrence.
regarding the topic of how to track tithing - i don’t see any biblical precedent for tracking church giving, except that in the case of some kind of humanitarian crisis, we ask the churches to give joyfully and help meet the needs. as far as tracking individual giving, i think we have seen how that can be abused.
of course, there is the financial/business issue of using the tracking as a tax write-off, in which case a certain financial document would actually be a service to those who were faithfully giving to the church.
moreover, i know i’m in the minority here and may run the risk of being called a heretic, but i think we ought to encourage people NOT to tithe (which literally means to give 10% of your income). what we should encourage is biblical generosity, which maybe begin with dropping some bills in the plate, but certainly doesn’t end there.
we really do need to come to a better understanding of what we own doesn’t belong to us. so, in a sense, i ought to be willing to give 100% of what I have to those in need. i realize that people say 10% is a “good place to start” for a culture that is increasingly self-centered, but i think all too often the practice of “tithing” provides an unnecessary means to guilt-trip people or a religious cushion to hide behind, with little to no biblical basis.
Kenyon said,
October 14, 2008 at 11:43 am
I haven’t read all the posts here, I’ve read most up to this point but not all and it seems to me that there are two types of people. The generous, who give with an open hand and don’t really care. Sure it may bother them that someone is tracking all this to hold them accountable, but in the end it’s not a make or break deal. Then there are those who are not generous, and it seems that they are the ones who are vehemetly opposed to this idea of tracking and furhter more some are even oppossed to tithing at all (hence they are clearly not generous).
There are so many angles to come at this from. As a staffer do I feel the love and support of the people I serve through their generous tithing? As a member of the church do I feel that my money is being stewarded (sp?) in a godly fashion? As a non-believer is the way the church deals with money any different than Enron or AIG or anyone else for that matter?
JudiFree said,
October 14, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Only financial people should track this for contribution sake. Period!
Carol said,
October 14, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Please pray and pray earnestly, then give as God impresses you and as much as your faith allows you. Whatever you contribute to the church cannot be too big or too small….it will be just the right amount when God leads. Personally I am totally compelled to give 10% and for the most part convicted. So when I write out the tithe check the minute we receive my husband’s check or mine I divide it by 10 and that goes to God through the local church of which I am a member. No ifs, ands, buts or ors……about it! And I do know this…we have a couple in our Church who are management level employees who work at Intuit and they say if the IRS ever has an audit, you must have receipts that your records match what rthe church has from the yearly letter they send. I’m sorry you have had a bad experience with but I do believe church finance people who have the responsibility should keep it very confidential. And I always Malachi 3:10 in my mind when ladies ask me about tithing. Great post! I know God has blessed us beyond anyone’s comprehension because we do tithe 10%. It’s amazing! It comes back to us so many times. You cannot outgive God.
Toby said,
October 14, 2008 at 12:53 pm
I should have known better then to subscribe to the follow up comments. Something is inevitably said that I feel the need to respond to.
First of all, whether it’s biblical or not, I’m not going to get into, but I know what the definition of “tithe” is and our family does tithe! That doesn’t necessarily mean we stop at 10%, but the FIRST goes to God. I don’t think He wants our trash or leftovers and that IS biblical.
Having said that, I would like to ask a question to those who believe tracking is necessary.
If I’m supposed to give from my heart and not because I HAVE to (also biblical) and someone is checking up on me to, I presume, repremand me for not giving or giving enough, didn’t that just wipe out the first part of this question??? Doesn’t that mean I HAD to or else I am to be repremanded? Do I have to because it’s a church rule or because it’s God’s rule? Is it ok for the church to have different rules than God?
I don’t buy into the crap that “it’s not a private matter” because Jesus watched over what was being given. If anything, that strenghtens the point for no tracking as the Holy Spirit is definitely in our church, but I haven’t seen Jesus there, in person. That tells me our giving is, precisely, between me and Jesus….no one else.
I don’t understand the blatant characterization that I (and others here) are thrown into because we don’t agree with the “trackers.” MAN! Is that biblical? I don’t agree with you so I must not give at all?? It’s a shame that people who consider themselves Christians can rush to judgement like that. I don’t care how your experience speaks to you, sometimes it’s better to state your case without accusations.
Interesting discussion Anne. I’ll definitely be thinking about this as I drop my envelope in the plate on Sunday :-).
TEM said,
October 14, 2008 at 12:58 pm
I found that any issue in my life that “is just between me and God”, any issue about which other members of the body of Christ “have no right to question me” those are the areas where Satan works. Money is no different. If we are in large churches maybe “THE PASTOR” doesn’t need to know - but someone needs to know, someone who knows me and can help me. I have yet to meet a person who really wants to grow that doesn’t need both grace and truth brought to bear in all areas of their life in order to become what God wants us to be. Since there is a clear instruction for us to be generous and to share, to supply the needs of the body of Christ (if you don’t want to include thithing - okay) then we all need someone who can offer us grace but they also can offer us truth. The only way they can do that with any degree of personal application is to ask me about how I am doing in that area.
Gary P. said,
October 14, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Until recently, I thought church staff should never look into finances. Then a pastor friend gave me his perspective. He said that one of the prime indicators of spiritual commitment is what a person does with his money. My friend allowed that he would never know the incomes of church families, so he couldn’t exactly tell who was “tithing.” However, he said he didn’t want any “$50-a-month” givers making big choices about where to invest church resources and drafting vision for the church. I’m not saying I agree. It’s just another perspective.
THurst said,
October 14, 2008 at 1:26 pm
I was just curious Anne, why did you pay with cash? Was it because you want to keep your giving just beteen you and God? You certainly have that right. I would have questions for the person on staff “cornering you” and saying those things to you.
As a pastor, I only track the tithes of church leaders and staff. Tithing isn’t a matter of money, as much as it is a matter of heart. If a person on my staff is receiving compensation from the church and does not contribute financially back to it, there are greater issues at hand then tithing. Tithing reveals whether or not a person is with you. I think tithing reveals a level of maturity also.
I don’t know if you will read this but thanks Anne for the Catalyst conference updates.
Zach Younkin said,
October 14, 2008 at 1:46 pm
I say that we don’t need to worry about individual giving with the only exception being for tax purposes.
I honestly feel that that is the only reason names should be stored with giving records.
Doug said,
October 14, 2008 at 2:02 pm
I know that too often people do not “look the other way” when it comes to tracked giving. I know it’s hard, but I think it is wrong to use it as ANY sort of measure. Their are MANY other ways to measure whether your leaders or members are growing into generous people or not. Knowing can actually work against a pastor.
Also, just for grins, I wonder how many churches know what their pastor gives…
Dave said,
October 14, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Matthew 23:23 (New International Version)
23″Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Malachi 3:6-12 (New International Version)
Robbing God
6 “I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. 7 Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you,” says the LORD Almighty.
“But you ask, ‘How are we to return?’
8 “Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me.
“But you ask, ‘How do we rob you?’
“In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit,” says the LORD Almighty. 12 “Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land,” says the LORD Almighty.
How can Christian leaders strive to be a workman approved by God to correctly handle the word of truth that talks about tithing? They do not practice what the scripture says. BTW the tithe was instituted before the law was given, therefore it is not legalism to expect to be held accountable and ultimately points to a condition of one’s heart
Ultimately it is between you and God and I don’t think God loves you any less. It is pretty clear that there are plenty of things being held back from God either due to a lack of obedience coupled with rationalizations for not tithing, a lack of faith, or a lack of gratitude for the sacrifice on the cross. Maybe all three.
The current statistic is that only 3% of church goers tithe according to Dave Ramsey.
adrian said,
October 14, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Here is an interesting link with some points regarding tithing. I can’t really say i support/oppose all the points in the link because my mind hasn’t really digested them yet.
http://www.agape.com/tithe.htm
It did provoke a few questions though…When we talk about Christ abolishing the OT Law, why do we seen to exclude the law of tithing? What about the relevancy of the tithe of crops and livestock versus our wages? And what about the language of Paul of giving ‘from the heart’? Can old/new law about tithing coexist or not?
Also, in terms of the church ‘tracking’ your tithing, I’m all for relying on my pastor to keep me accountable (in a loving and encouraging way) to live a life that would honor God. But if it’s at all unclear what the church’s role in modern tithing should be (especially to the lay church goer) then it’s going to anger people because they’re going to question whether their church is acting biblical or not. Heck, this thread of comments alone reflects that the church community as a whole does not have a consensus on what tithing should be.
TEM said,
October 14, 2008 at 4:05 pm
I say to the people I lead that we should all just chill about tithing or not tithing. I believe the principle in Romans 14 applies there “Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.” I don’t know whether believing I must tithe is having weak faith or believing I don’t have to tithe is weak faith. I think spending our time talking about tithing keeps us from the real issue - MONEY and CONSUMERISM is destroying us spiritually in the U.S. Those of us who are Christians are no better dealing with it than those who are not committed to following Jesus. This should not be. So let’s stop fighting about tithing and let’s get on with helping each other deal with money. That means we have to talk about it and be accountable to each other.
Phil Thompson said,
October 14, 2008 at 4:14 pm
When i was senior pastor we used to “bill” people every week for their tithe……….JUST KIDDING!!!
Jan Owen said,
October 14, 2008 at 4:49 pm
I do not believe it is up to us to hold anyone accountable for their personal tithing. After all, we don’t follow them home and see how often they pray or worship privately or what not. I think it’s safer all around for a financial person to know this and NO KEY LEADERS. This is just my opinion. Personally I don’t want my life complicated by the knowledge.
Also, don’t we desire people to give out of obedience?
anne jackson said,
October 14, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Thurst, we gave in cash because we felt it was nobody’s business but god’s and ours what we were giving and we didn’t care about the tax benefits so there was no need for us to fill out the little envelope with our info. it was an issue of trust, and if someone who knows us (by our love and our “fruit”) and can’t trust me to give in the way god has called my husband and me to give then it’s probably not the best fit for us.
Joanna said,
October 14, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Phil Thompson, Its not quite as funny as it seems. i have heard of people being billed, including the elderly without much income who couldn’t afford it.
Lisa said,
October 14, 2008 at 6:29 pm
I’m putting on my thinking cap: Now, which one? Business cap vs. Ministry cap ( I think they can be combined :) )
I’ve worked at a church in a business office. I see the amount of cash come in and I think, wow that’s great….these people didn’t really want “credit” as you call it for their giving. But, I don’t think that it makes them anymore spiritual because they didn’t want credit. That would be called fake humbleness (wanting credit for not wanting credit).
But I don’t think that’s what you were getting at exactly. I think that leaders should be tithing. Change has to come from the top down. If church leaders aren’t tithing, than how are they expecting their congregation to tithe? I think a simple conversation could have been had with you and your husband asking about your thoughts on tithing and from that, they would have been able to conclude that meeting with a positive feeling towards why you didn’t feel the need to put your name on a check.
However, I have seen elders, staff members, etc not tithe like they should be and they walk around with a clout of superiority about them that would make me question much more than just what they are pulling out of their pocketbooks. I think if I worked at a church and I paid you 50,000 a year and you only tithed $100 (from records) I would be forced to sit down and have a conversation with that church employee. I wouldn’t judge them, but I would require an explanation as to why people’s tithe money that is going to pay their salary isn’t also then being tithed back to the very ministry they are leading ( or at least to where I can see).
I don’t believe that if you found out your senior pastor was tithing $100 a year to the church he was leading, would you feel encouraged that he was fully supporting the church in all areas? Maybe this is the human side of me, but I wouldn’t.
I know plenty of really good people, people that love the Lord and I know for a fact they don’t tithe. I wish I could always trust their hearts, but if it was me, sometimes my heart has a hard time parting with that money every week because it would be much easier to pay off a credit card. I think a simple conversation is an easy way to end a lingering question rather then an accusation.
Phil Thompson said,
October 14, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Joanna, that is true, i have heard of that too. No wonder the church seems to have PR problems.
Ashley said,
October 14, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Oh my gosh, Anne.
I seriously thought I was alone.
I have been in so much pain, anguish, brokenness, and hurt over this very topic.
Seriously, you have no idea, I am crying while typing this.
My husband and I were serving at his home church and giving in CASH because we did not want tax benefits or any indication of how much we gave. We believe that we should sacrificially give, not just our 10%, but until it hurts. Anyway, long story short… They were tracking it and asked us to give in form of a check (which we did after we were asked- but also still kept giving in cash in addition).
3 weeks ago we were called into the Senior Pastor’s office
and FIRED. Seriously. (First time in my life) Not to mention I was working over 60 hours a week and only being compensated for 20 hours…
He said there was no reason morally, spiritually, or theologically why we were let go… he just didn’t agree with our opinion about giving. He asked that we take our severance, pack up our office, and not communicate with anyone from the church.
We were not able to say goodbye or talk to any of the students/families we were serving.
let go.
Three weeks later, I am still devastated. These students were my life. I loved them sooooooo much. This was our home church and just like that, we were cut out.
We are all so confused and puzzled.
I am seriously considering never serving again…
Michael Lukaszewski said,
October 14, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Great post and great question! As a pastor of a relatively new church, myself and two other people have access to people’s giving records. When we are considering hiring from within or giving someone a key volunteer position, I do check up on this.
Jesus said that our heart was directly connected to how we handle our finances, and if a person is not supporting our church with their finances, that tells me that they do not buy into the vision of our church as much as a staff member needs to.
Tithing and giving is a spiritual principle, and I want our staff to personally lead the way. For this reason, a few times a year, I will check the giving records of our staff. If they are not giving, that’s a spiritual issue. We will take that as an opportunity to lead and help them.
Now I don’t know what every single person in our church gives…I don’t check things to that level. But I do think it’s important that staff members and key volunteers give. Some might consider this legalistic, but I want our entire church to be a generous church, and we believe that we’ll never be able to lead people where we haven’t been ourselves.
In the event that people give in cash, then that’s where we as pastors have to trust people. Giving is a heart matter.
Great post and great comments on this tough topic.
TEM said,
October 14, 2008 at 8:44 pm
Ashley my heart is breaking for what has happened to you and your husband. As you can see from previous post I do believe we have the responsibility to help each other with regard to the insidious hold that money and stuff can get in our lives. BUT the story as your described is just wrong. I’m so sorry for you, for the church, for your husband, for the students, for the church, for the witness to a watching community - I’m just sorry.
Darren Chapman said,
October 14, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Here in Australia tithes are not tax deductible so we don’t track tithes. For building and larger giving programs it’s a different story for many churches. I believe in honouring those who are using their gifts and since giving is a spiritual gift I believe that a level of honour is required. I never seek to elevate the large givers above the small ones though but honouring is good!
Sorry… have been tending to my kids through writing this so it might make no sense!
Bonnie Irving said,
October 14, 2008 at 8:57 pm
I totally Believe that this is is Something that is a thing that Should be Between You and God. My Pastor has said that He doesn’t want to know who Gives and who doesn’t Because its a thing that is an Area that you Learn to be Faithful and Obedient to God. Not because someone thinks you should, or out of fear that someone is going to Find out you don’t tithe.. But out of Fear of the Lord .. Because His word says you should, and Because you care what HE thinks of you …
amanda said,
October 14, 2008 at 9:27 pm
no. many people give cash as you did or give to other ministries or missionaries in addition to their church as part of their tithe. besides, giving means nothing if it’s not from a joyful heart. if it’s just to keep up with appearances or to be a ‘good leader,’ it’s as filthy rags to the God who needs nothing from us, but delights in our freewill offerings.
Jeff said,
October 14, 2008 at 11:27 pm
Dave, isn’t that pre-law example of tithing where Abraham gives 10% of his spoils (not income) to Melchizedek, once in his life? Isn’t that a stretch to say that every ten cents out of a dollar that a Christian earns ought to go to the church? And isn’t that Malachi verse talking about harvested crops (why else would you need a storehouse)?
We need to admit that our understanding of “biblical tithing” is a straw man and that we may even be hiding behind our tithing practices as a means of self-righteousness. Didn’t some say earlier that giving to your church makes you more spiritual? Where is that in the Bible?
Kendra Lee said,
October 15, 2008 at 12:01 am
Can of worms… :-) Giving. I agree with people that have said it’s a matter of the heart. Absolutely. I also agree with the fact that 10% is a great starting place. “New Covenant” giving is far more than that. Between you and God - absolutely. It is a matter of priority and a matter of the heart. When we give our first-fruits to selfish desires (consumerism, pleasures/entertainment…), we are not seeking Him first in our finances. Do we even ask, “How much would You have me to give??” or “What can I give up so that I can give more to the kingdom work?” (Not just local churches, but missions, missionaries, organizations etc.) Are we giving sacrificially? Does our checkbook reflect Matt. 6:33?
aaron said,
October 15, 2008 at 12:02 am
yes we should track ALL tithing.
How else would we know who to invite to our elegant parties in which we promote our new building campaigns?
Gabi said,
October 15, 2008 at 4:44 am
Hi,
I’m Gabi. I hope you don’t mind me reading your blog. Please keep writing, you’re inspiring and blessing me more than you know through what He writes through you ?You are more than welcome to read/comment my blog anytime, I’d love to hear from you!
http://www.compelledbylove.wordpress.com
Ryan said,
October 15, 2008 at 5:40 am
Hey brothers and sisters in christ, my wife is #45 on the comments list, I love having the ability to reach out to this body as we lay burdens at the feet of Christ. My story began when i decided that I wanted to give in cash because that involved a prayerful journey to the ATM and then I ask the important question, how much? I think the measure unlike the OT (35-40% were taxes for he community, and 10 went into as a part of the temple) A few thinks to notice:
These taxes were given into the context of a theocracy God-centered Government all of it was given to god. Marc Driscoll did a fabulous message on stewardship. in There he gives the driving attitudes on tithing. GIVE JOYFULLY, GIVE TIL it HURTS, GIVE without the perks
My pastor didn’t like that answer, and as Andy Stanley said it “some youth pastors lead their way out of a Job” This pastor was not evil, he was managing a large church for the first time, he was a former board member who was selected to take the post, the church has millions of dollars of assets very little debt, gives over a 1/2 a million to global missions. when the tithe was dwindleing the board told the pastor to look for a “pattern of Giving” which they would not have for anyone who gave cash and anonymously, that was cornerstone of why we were fired without cause……Wrong? Mayber Definitly Not whay Jesus would have done!
Joel H. Williams said,
October 15, 2008 at 10:26 am
I’ve always had a problem with “pledge cards”/”pledge day” where we tell the church what we intend to give that day. sure you can argue that giving serious consideration to what you want to give and how sacrificial you want to challenge yourself to be and setting goals are all important steps every Christian should take to grow their faith and servant heart, but my problem is that the church teaches us we should trust and have faith in the unknown unseen and scientifically “unproveable”, yet the church itself does not live out this faith because it ties it’s ministry plans to whether or not the pledged amounts and budget allow for those to be accomplished.
I haven’t come to a conclusion on this - I’m still wrestling and growing, but in the mean time, I’m trusting my leadership to be wiser than this hypocrite on issues such as this and my wife and I turn in our pledge card and we started our daughter off giving a tithe of a small allowance we give her at age 4 so she can see/experience/participate in ways that my parents didn’t show me - I never saw my parents write or submit a tithe check and only remember one “discussion” (read fight) when one parent wanted to give more than another (I don’t know who/what, just that they faught over it).
One interesting story I heard a few years ago that has challenged me - I believe it was my pastor who told the story (Dr. Gary Fenton, Dawson Memorial Baptist Church, Birmingham, Alabama. his blog is http://www.characterpath.com & though he is not a flashy/high profile/”cutting edge” pastor, I have found his insights to be very wise and sound and challenging). Anyway, the story was regarding a visit to church(s) in Brazil or another South American country. The chuch had the tithing record of every member printed out on a continuous feed printer and taped up on the wall in the hall between the sanctuary and the church office - every member had the opportunity to see what every other member gave or didn’t give. I’m not saying that is right/appropriate, but think how challenging that would be. maybe it’s inappropriate use of peer pressure, but if we are truly one body of Christ coming together for God’s greater purpose in a true spirit of love, compassion, and servanthood, & if stories in the bible tell what the young church gave with specific knowledge of certain people selling land, etc. to give, then I’m challenged to ask myself if sharing with other members of the body of Christ the burden of the church should be kept private from those members.
That’s just my personal struggle and I don’t know where I’ll land on the issue, but I certainly sympathize with Anne about the fact that what we give monetarily shouldn’t be used as the basis of selection for leadership, etc. As an Architect, I think people imagine that my wife and I rake it in and if their idea of what we make were compared to what we give instead of comparing our giving to what we actually make (gross or net, take your pick), we would be judged unfairly. I often get the sense that those financial records are used in the selection process for leadership positions and joke about the “letter” that baptists move from one church to another when they change membership is like the medical file on Seinfeld where Elaine is trying to get a look at her record to see if there is an acorn identifying her as a nutcase, etc., but then I pray that God will be revealed through my life and I try to let it go and do what I feel God is leading me to do, and challenging me to consider through the actions of the church and other believers and non-believers alike.
tithing said,
October 15, 2008 at 11:17 am
It’s impossible to track what people give especially if it’s cash. Are they gonna require you to only sign checks? This is legalism.
-Jared
Darin Newberry said,
October 15, 2008 at 12:57 pm
What an interesting thread! Thanks, Anne Jackson, for your Facebook posting that tipped me off to this. I’ll pass this along to some friends. I will also cross-post this on my blog, http://musingsandmaunderings.blogspot.com/ where you can find some fascinating, even controversial, topics I treat, without kid gloves or tender tulip tiptoeing.
Tithing is something I was raised to believe in, but I’ve not been involved in faithfully tithing, year in and year out. For the greater part of my single and married life, I have tithed, and my wife and I have tried to give both 10% tithes, and offerings above that as we’re able. If that confession hurts me in somebody’s rulebook, or limits the type of church or organization I can associate with in future, I don’t regret it. It’ll be their loss, for judging my past.
Imagine some pseudo-religious cabal maintaining a TITHING SCORE—like a FICO score—on their members, offering subscriptions to churches and non-profits to share such data on the reported giving of the more [or less] faithful among them….
“Miz Barelygettingby, Rev. Olierthanthou’s Accounts Receivable Dept. has reported that your donations to PearlyGatesAssembly were somewhat erratic in five out of the nine years you fellowshipped there. Were you going through hard times? On the bad end of a divorce settlement? Why didn’t you sow during the time of famine, like Isaac did? You may have forfeited a 100-fold return on the giving you didn’t enclose in ministry envelopes; don’t you know we have space for you to put your prayer requests there? The good Reverend always prays twice daily over the stacks of envelopes that come in through the offerings and in the mail. Just for your information, PearlyGates had to discontinue two of its outreaches during that time, partly because of your stinginess….”
Speculative, cynical, mean-spirited? Or too close for comfort for some of us?
tony said,
October 15, 2008 at 1:52 pm
c’mon people , don’t you get it
we track to make the list for the big givers and fat pastors banquet!
rita said,
October 15, 2008 at 7:10 pm
let’s just say that my husband and i did the same thing-tithed in cash…we stopped writing checks because the way our “building campaign” was running was ticking us off, but we still wanted to be faithful….let me just tell you that it’s almost impossible to get a flawless statement of our giving when it comes around tax season-but when our CHECKS stopped coming in-they had a PERFECT draw up of our giving for the year so far-to remind us to give, not only tithe, but to our building fund….can you believe that!!!!!! why can’t we just give? why the added room for pressure and people who have to put their feet in the mouths (sometimes both feet at the same time?) that’s the hardest part about giving-always remembering you are giving to GOD and not man….
Angie said,
October 16, 2008 at 10:29 am
Our church has a finance person and a third-party person that does all the tracking for charitable giving tracking only. They are faithful to inform us that those are the only two people who know how much we give. Then we have the choice to do cash or check, and because I trust our church leadership and know that are not about “big wallets or fat pastors”, I am perfectly comfortable giving by either. And our church does monthly budget updates and congregational meetings so we can track spending in the church, etc.
One thing I love about our church is that they don’t expect us to tithe without them doing the same… they give 20% of our church budget to missions/mercy.
bobby said,
October 17, 2008 at 12:22 pm
I wasn’t able to read all the comments, so I don’t know if this was addressed. But I would love to hear everyone’s opinions on whether or not a church should require staff members, especially pastoral staff, to tithe. Future post maybe?
Barry Smith said,
October 18, 2008 at 12:28 pm
I’m late on the conversation… but as a pastor, my history is - if I had a dollar for every person that said they give in cash… we’d pay off our church mortgage. This is not to assume that you are lying about giving in cash… that is your right. However, any leader at my church (significant influence at all) will need to be trusted with verification. If a leader does not want to be held accountable… my estimation is that they are not the leader I want on my team. A little harsh - but when the leadership bar is lowered, so goes the rest of the church.
And for the pastors and elders who say they have no right to see giving or it’s none of their business to know people’s giving… I wonder what other spiritual issues they are ignoring… sexual immorality? marriage issues? not serving? no quiet time? no prayer or bible reading? OF COURSE, as pastors, we want to know these sorts of things about our congregations… those are ok… but not money. Money is a spiritual issue, no question about that. I like to know the spiritual climate of my church - spiritual, emotional, financial, relational, etc.
? said,
October 18, 2008 at 1:40 pm
@ Barry Smith & rest of Pastors…
As a Pastor, what do you see your role as… shepherd? coach? monitor? preacher? counselor? speaker? servant? leader? or?
How do you keep yourself from knowing the big givers and catering to them? How do you protect yourself and safeguard yourself from being biased in terms of money?
How do you measure your congregation’s quiet time or prayer life?
Barry Smith said,
October 18, 2008 at 2:00 pm
?,
as a pastor - I see myself with many hats. Spiritual leader encompasses the majority of your questions above (shepherd, coach, monitor, preacher, etc).
The big issue in all of this is LEADERSHIP! We aren’t talking about how you handle each person in the congregation. We’re talking about leadership. As the leadership goes - so goes the people. Strong leadership, strong congregation. There is no ‘catering’ big givers. But you can tell people that are on board with the vision by their vote… they vote with their feet, hands, and wallets. If they are in attendance, serving and giving - you’ve got somebody who is on board. Not perfect, but on board.
As for measuring quiet times, we will do occassional surveys and ask pointed questions. We really focus a lot on spiritual HABITS - and push them through our small groups and Sunday services. The fact is - prayer, devotions, etc are very difficult to measure. That doesn’t mean we don’t try - it’s just difficult. Serving and money and attendance - those are extremely measurable. It’s pretty simple.
Deb said,
October 20, 2008 at 5:02 am
I’m surprised no one else has mentioned Matthew 6:1 “Be careful not to do your ‘acts of righteousness’ in front of others, to be seen by them. “….it goes on to describe what this looks like in giving, prayer and fasting.
And then 2 Corinthian 9:7 “Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.”
Am I too idealistic to hope that churches can highlight healthy giving as part of a their teaching/discipleship program, then leave it to the Holy Spirit and the individuals to work out what form/amount that looks like?
Neil said,
October 20, 2008 at 2:53 pm
I came back to this thread because of something I was writing to a friend just now about giving. In Blue Like Jazz, Donald Miller says (p115) “Christianity, unlike Christian spirituality, was not a term that excited me”. That sounds rather dangerous out of context, so if you want to jump on it, go and check out Miller’s context first.
But, fast forward to the other subject. Substituting words, I could say that “Tithing, unlike generosity, was not a term that excited me”.
I am guessing that the cultural context of the comments is mainly US. In Europe, the issues of both tithing (which my church DOES teach) and accountability (which we do not do) are addressed very differently, and I think that the key issue of generosity is usually taught more strongly than tithing per se.
This is key to my money advice ministry with people who are struggling with a debt burden. We don’t teach tithing in this context; we do teach generosity. Interestingly, you can only try to teach tithing to Christians; you can teach generosity to all who are made in God’s image.
Doug said,
October 22, 2008 at 9:19 am
I wish the question was not “how much is each person giving,” I wish the question was “what are we (the church) doing with that money?” Many of us are leaders; we should ultimately be focused on our accountability too. Far too often I hear this defeatist approach: “we could do SO much more if people would just give more.” I think we could improve our sense of focus. Are we using what people (and ultimately God) are entrusting us with well?
Tom said,
November 8, 2008 at 5:36 pm
No one on staff member, lead pastor or whatever, has the right to know who gives and how much other than the financial secretary or an outside party, whoever is designated to that role. Someone who can be trusted. I had a similar situation Anne, where someone confronted me about my wife and I not giving and it was the same with us, we were doing it with cash. On top of that, the pastor felt he had the right to know what everyone was giving but didn’t feel anyone should know what HE gave nor what he was making as a salary. What’s up with that?
Barry Smith said,
November 8, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Tom, sounds like you have some baggage. Understandable that you would feel this way. Still does not negate the accountability factor. The higher up you go in leadership, the more ‘rights’ you give up. I disagree with you. There is no way I want someone on the platform ‘leading’ others in the congregation or our youth or our children about giving to God and putting Him first… and encouraging them to give their offerings to God… to give of their FIRST FRUITS… and then all the while they are robbing God of what is already His - the 10%. Putting people up there on the platform to lead in the offering or even leading others in worship - while they don’t have this issue resolved - it puts them in a place of hypocrisy.
As for cash… depending on your leadership in the church - that seems like a cop-out to me. Not saying that you are not - but WHY? Why would you want to be secretive about that… and why would you not take the write-off against your taxes?
I’m sure you’ll have a defense to this - i would assume that is because of whatever would you have. In our church - leadership is a big deal. And as the leader goes - so goes the people. If the leaders won’t give and put God first in this area - how could we expect the people to do likewise?
Anne Jackson said,
November 8, 2008 at 7:19 pm
I can’t speak for Tom but we give in cash because we want to. I have enough tax write offs so it’s not an issue for us. There’s not a motive behind it. Why shouldn’t we?
Tom said,
November 8, 2008 at 7:20 pm
Barry, I was very clear on the fact that we did give. You don’t know the facts here and you accuse me of possibly not giving. You may be the one with some baggage here. Please don’t jump to any conclusions. I’ll say it again, nobody needs to know what my wife and I give, period. That doesn’t mean there’s baggage brother, it just means no one else needs to know. I don’t need to know what anyone else gives either. It’s a two-way street.
Who are you referring to when you talk about putting someone in leadership and asking people to give and then not giiving themselves? I never said my pastor didn’t give. I never said I got up there and asked people to give and then turned around and didn’t give. I don’t quite follow Barry.
Barry Smith said,
November 8, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Tom, Don’t want to spar here. Not accusing of anything. I am saying that when people step up in leadership - directors, pastors, small group leaders, anyone with influence… and/or when those who are on the platform giving offering appeals (the prayer before the church takes an offering)… for those that are influencing others - there is a leadership standard in play. You don’t have to agree with that. As a pastor of the church, i would not want someone on the platform encouraging others to give their offerings… to sacrifice for God… and then turn around and those people are not giving (nothing to do with you)… that puts them in a hypocritical situation.
Finally, when it comes to LEADERSHIP (not everyone), you give up to go up. I have seen to many elders and top leadership in churches that are robbing God and hindering their leadership. That’s all - it’s all good. (side note - i have heard repeatedly about people that give in cash… and if all those people’s giving were totaled up - it would be about 5 times the actual cash giving each week at our church. :) )
Tom said,
November 8, 2008 at 9:27 pm
I would rather not spar about this either. Just to clarify, this topic was about whether or not people should know what or if you give or not, not the whole issue of tithing. I can see your point about pastors having other staff members who are going to be examples to the flock and not be hypocrites. But I also don’t see any biblical basis for the accountability factor. It just sounds like a good idea but that’s all. I also put the signing of covenants for the purpose of membership and or serving/volunteering in the church in this same category. There’s no biblical basis for it. It’s bondage.
Let’s end it here because neither of us will change to the others view. It was nice talking with you.
Tom said,
November 8, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Anne, thanks. I agree with your comment.
Tom said,
November 10, 2008 at 12:29 am
To Ryan #55 and Ashley #45,
My heart goes out to you guys. My wife and I went through a similar experience a couple years ago, and if you two would like to compare notes so to speak or just share together I would be more than willing. I can’t speak for my wife Sally but I would be willing to talk if you guys want to. She may join in, I don’t know. I’m taking a chance but here’s my e-mail address. btsbecker@aol.com
Tom Becker
Ryan said,
November 10, 2008 at 2:32 am
Bottom line of the discussion comes to reasonable forms of accountability. If we were called to be leaders the bible points to accountability through fruit of that leader, wicked leaders were called wicked not because of their actions per say (should I point to David?) but because of the fruit of their leadership, while this may seem a little Machiavellian, it is biblical, (may I not also point to Solomon). Accountability among peers in an organization (that’s right the senior pastor is a peer- if Jesus is not at the top of your leader chart your already have issues) is not mandated, it is earned as a place of trust, that said any pastor who holds someone into account does so out of a relationship within and beyond the pastoral office. If we cannot trust staff members who say they give in cash, the issue is trust not the cash. But I do see the position of over-seer (elder) now what we call “pastor” equally not to be in a point of sin as it relates to greed and the love of money. Although I appreciate the comments about cash/check giving, accountability and leadership. Leaders do influence, but as we see from the biblical witness it comes from the partnership with the human leader and the divine God (not making Leadership more divine as any other gifting), why else call men to servant leadership, dieing to ourselves, taking up crosses? I think much of the time the church borrows business terms without understanding them (like accountability, leadership etc.) I look to guys like Seth Godin who argue EVERYONE is a leader who influences people in and around them, whether on the platform or the audience the standards are the same. While none of these terms or using them is in any way non beneficial, many pastors, as I have observed many, seem to impose those words and schema upon the biblical foundations. I know i may get flack from this, but it is an issue of stewardship. ALL money is God’s, you can’t “rob” but you can mismanage and spend it like its yours. And we see the consequences to it. Asking pastors to manage the giving of others, is like testing the bed sheets in someone else’s marriage to make sure they are not adulterous, or asking them to install car speed monitors in their car. At the end of the day any argument from “leadership” alone or one that demands accountability is shallow, it takes us and puts it in the judgment seat of God, where one pastor may have a problem with “giving” the lead pastor may have a problem with leading his family or working too much, not exercising enough, or copyright infringement without citing sources, should we then have all schedules/agenda’s turned in to the senior pastor, sermons turned in for review, radar guns in the church parking lot? I guess it turns the holy office of “Elder” into something wholly other - a Policemen. As God did with Aiken and other leaders in biblical witnesses God holds them to account. Case in point many pastors are on a power trip and money in many ways is a snare that gives them security, pays their salary, gives them the not for profit benefits, and what businessmen would not want to protect “security”.
Ryan said,
November 10, 2008 at 2:47 am
I also have another comment on Leading from hypocrisy: a hypocrite is someone who wears a mask or multiple ones in the course of drama, a hypocrite is what Jesus called the pharisees, who gave to the Roman Government called it tithing, took glory for it but keeping public records of it, yet that same Roman Government killed their messiah, raped their women, oppressed their people. Putting someone in a place of hypocrisy is a silly statement because you can never force someone to wear a mask they are already wearing, that is of course unless the office of elder/pastor is a mask and not a mantle.